tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post786949806779701912..comments2024-03-29T15:22:10.397+00:00Comments on Fabled Lands: How a surfeit of skills in an RPG stifles interesting storiesDave Morrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-83759827309619823792021-01-10T13:32:28.153+00:002021-01-10T13:32:28.153+00:00I almost missed your comment as this is quite an o...I almost missed your comment as this is quite an old post! Good points, Tim, and as you know my gripes about GURPS are like Paris finding fault in Helen's little toenail, as for the most part I think 4e is the best simulationist system out there. (I'd like a streamlined 5e even more, but that'll never happen.)<br /><br />Perception vs Observation remains one of the things I stumble over. I think it's akin to "I'm looking for a thing" contrasted with "I notice a thing", ie active/passive use of abilities as cited by Roger Bell_West in the current post's comments.Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-6728021884434026102021-01-07T18:31:42.265+00:002021-01-07T18:31:42.265+00:00So...I do generally like simple skill systems/ low...So...I do generally like simple skill systems/ low rolling density systems, especially for online play, as you'll know. And in my GURPS games as in Tim H's games, rolls are fewer than thet might be. Very much not discouraging you from aiming from streamlining in DW2. <br /><br />I'm going to make a few defences for GURPS though. Here goes:<br />1. You're comparing a Universal RPG system with a genre-specific system. Not very fair: GURPS tries to be a toolkit for any genre, tone, period. Necessarily it caters to the highly granular and has skills from tech levels from Stone Age to Star Wars. That's a lot of skills to cover.<br /><br />2. You rather mischaracterize the skill system. The skill level is meant to represent an action under quite severe stress and time pressure, with rudimentary gear, for an average level challenge of task. If there's no time pressure, or if you have great equipment, or if the task is simple: either you get big modifiers or (more commonly) the GM would hand-wave it. <br /><br />3. Worked example: Knot-Tying. You rather suggest if your DX is 12 and you haven't bought skill in Knot Tying then you have only a single attempt at <=8 to untie any knot, ever. If you're not under time pressure, +4 to your roll (Basic Set, "Meaning of Skill Levels" p.171). If the guy who tied them up wasn't an expert either, it's likely an easy knot to undo. If you have a sharp knife, even easier. <br /><br />4. There certainly are some cases where skills seem needlessly multiplied (Shadowing/Stealth/Camouflage is a good instance). The 4e rulebook certainly suffers from being rather expansive and side-bar/index-heavy. But, like any system, if you are looking for gaming rules as -to use a language comprehension analogy - a sympathetic native rather than as a grammar nazi, 4e can be a fast smooth gaming system without getting too crunchy.Tim Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04212571775757550264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-8184830732230116842019-03-09T16:07:26.424+00:002019-03-09T16:07:26.424+00:00I had to Google feats. They do sound like way too ...I had to Google feats. They do sound like way too book-keeping. My goal for Dragon Warriors 2e will be for a system where players only have to unpack as much detail as they want.Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-45796460766507227442019-03-08T15:42:34.629+00:002019-03-08T15:42:34.629+00:00Circling a bit back to the topic, I don't play...Circling a bit back to the topic, I don't play AD&D past the 2nd edition because of the huge skills and all the feats. Do I have all the feats I need? Will my character die of a bowel blockage because I forgot to get the "take a crap" feat? johntfshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16005496604068259398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-36764267916523615582019-03-04T14:20:55.138+00:002019-03-04T14:20:55.138+00:00Thanks. That's not too far off the direction I...Thanks. That's not too far off the direction I've been taking with Dragon Warriors 2e, except that skills (similar to their focus) don't add to the chance of success, but instead give more finesse in using an ability. Still, I like the approach: try anything, and if you have the relevant focus you get a bonus.Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-4227289357174058152019-03-04T12:53:22.151+00:002019-03-04T12:53:22.151+00:00Also Dragon Age focus system (page 7) maybe intere...Also Dragon Age focus system (page 7) maybe interest you:<br />https://freeronin.com/dragon_age_rpg/DragonAgeRPGQuickstartGuide.pdfLa Luxxahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11323292819297813397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-56469874840665155882019-03-03T19:48:41.035+00:002019-03-03T19:48:41.035+00:00Today: an organic, character-driven alternative to...Today: an organic, character-driven alternative to prescriptive skill systems. Tomorrow: the world!Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787043511154360299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-69592765649248801192019-03-03T13:31:43.367+00:002019-03-03T13:31:43.367+00:00Guy Sclanders was musing last week about there bei...Guy Sclanders was musing last week about there being a Council of Daves. It sounds like an alliance with the Parliament of Andys may be in the offing.Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-68415438297000892832019-03-03T12:41:44.278+00:002019-03-03T12:41:44.278+00:00Well, Jon Snow and Daenarys Targaryen could well h...Well, Jon Snow and Daenarys Targaryen could well have a child called Dan Snow...(You know, that joke worked a lot better when I though Dan Snow was real-life Jon Snow's son, not just his cousin !)<br /><br />As for your Nerd Membership Card, your resignation will emphatically not be accepted...you have a life membership of that one Dave ; )<br /><br />Finally, could you pass on to Oliver my regards for the excellently dark scenario he wrote for "The Power of Darkness" - the tragic last acts of the doomed Selentine legionaries in that story still send a shiver up my spine, and have entered the 'historical section' of my mind's library as the best 'mood interpretation' of what befell the vanished 9th Roman Legion in our own world...just as your conjuring of Albion, the True Faith and relics helped to inform and enlighten my early understanding of those aspects of the Medieval world.<br /><br />Basically, you both got it spot on and I'm sure you will get DW2E absolutely right. Skills should be there to support the storytelling, not straight-jacket it and I know you will steer far from the GURPS rules-lawyer, contract-minutiae mentality. John Haganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16249152658906641154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-64826910146995890242019-03-03T10:22:49.774+00:002019-03-03T10:22:49.774+00:00I hadn't heard of Everywhen but apparently it ...I hadn't heard of Everywhen but apparently it was only published in August last year, so I guess I should't feel too bad about not knowing. Having looked at it, I may have to pick that up myself!<br /><br />Contrary to appearances: this is not just a conspiracy of people called Andy.Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787043511154360299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-66352450956354168832019-03-03T09:14:55.298+00:002019-03-03T09:14:55.298+00:00I came here to say, "sounds like you might fi...I came here to say, "sounds like you might find BoL interesting" but glad to see I'm not the only one thinking that.<br /><br />But remember that there is now a 'generic' version of BoL - Everywhen - and, perhaps more importantly, several examples of what the BoL "no skill, but careers/backgrounds" system looks like for different, non-S&S settings. <br /><br />I also came here to repeat the old joke - no D&D character fell off a horse until they got a 'Ride' skill.Andy Bartletthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683770320671028815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-39057635180347614002019-03-02T21:26:54.299+00:002019-03-02T21:26:54.299+00:00The career structure is quite a flexible system. I...The career structure is quite a flexible system. In addition to the base game there are at least two other versions that have been tweaked to make them more genre appropriate: Honor & Intrigue (cinematic swashbuckling) and Barbarians of the Aftermath (post-apocalyptic survival).<br /><br />I must confess that I haven't played the base game but reading it impressed me enough to buy Honor & Intrigue, which is the version I'm most interested in at the moment. It hasn't let us down so far.<br /><br />Some people might find BoL too vague leading to either "there's no skill list: I don't know what I can do", or degeneration into sophistry as people argue about which knowledge and skills a particular career covers. (Presumably that's why skill lists developed in the first place: to formalise things).<br /><br />Personally, I'm inclined to be fairly lenient and let the characters do cool stuff: we can usually agree on something that sounds reasonable.Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787043511154360299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-65367291548578058612019-03-02T17:33:48.375+00:002019-03-02T17:33:48.375+00:00I found an early 45-page edition of BoL as a free ...I found an early 45-page edition of BoL as a free PDF, Andy, but your character descriptions there of Syn and de Bergerac have me hooked. I might have to shell out for the deluxe 250-page version.Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-52475304970789600032019-03-02T17:32:00.250+00:002019-03-02T17:32:00.250+00:00You had me at Emilia Clarke, John. Although really...You had me at Emilia Clarke, John. Although really I should hand in my fantasy nerd membership card. The other night at our game, Oliver described somebody as "the Jon Snow of diplomacy" and I thought he meant the broadcaster!Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-34449029193608517902019-03-02T15:09:20.079+00:002019-03-02T15:09:20.079+00:00Hi Dave, I can spot some opportunity for cross-mar...Hi Dave, I can spot some opportunity for cross-marketing here, with the GOT Finale looming into view on the horizon...how about we run a series of ads with Emilia Clarke reprising some of her famous lines from GOT with a subtle alteration - "Where are my... Dragon Warriors 2nd Editions ?" <br /><br />We could then cut to Kit Harrington saying "Personally, I prefer D & D". Cue Emilia: "You know nothing, Jon Snow."<br /><br />(Smiley/winking face)John Haganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16249152658906641154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-13554042465567098992019-03-02T06:56:25.414+00:002019-03-02T06:56:25.414+00:00You're more than welcome. I've had great f...You're more than welcome. I've had great fun playing Dragon Warriors since I first stumbled across it in W H Smith back in the 1980s, so I should be thanking you!<br /><br />I know you've said in the past that an extensive skill list can easily end up defining what a character *can't* do, rather than what they can. Having played FASA's Star Trek and 2nd & 3rd edition Shadowrun I know what you mean.<br /><br />A couple of years ago I ran a Dragon Warriors campaign and some of the players, being used to D&D 3.5 found the absence of a skill list rather disconcerting: the idea that you can *try* pretty much anything without the skill list telling you that you can't (or, at least, shouldn't: if every tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.)<br /><br />Of course, a character's Profession defines what they can reasonably be expected to know and be proficient at to some extent, but I've always liked the idea that anyone *try* wearing any type of armour, or using any type of weapon, without the rules explicitly telling you that you can't.<br /><br />We are currently playing "Honor & Intrigue", a swashbuckling derivative of Barbarians of Lemuria. Since I've been listening to Radio 4extra recently here are my suggestions for Dr Syn:<br /><br />Scholar, Duellist, Priest, Pirate<br /><br />and Cyrano de Bergerac:<br /><br />Poet, Duellist, Soldier, plus one of: Gambler, Nobleman, Scholar, or Don Juan (despite his looks, he knows the way to a lady's heart!)<br /><br />(Sorry, another long post! Giving characters a rich backstory and representing that in the game without being too prescriptive is an idea I find interesting.)Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787043511154360299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-90110977171166152592019-03-01T14:05:30.650+00:002019-03-01T14:05:30.650+00:00That sounds nice and simple, and with some similar...That sounds nice and simple, and with some similarities to what I'm planning for Dragon Warriors 2e. I'll take a look -- thanks, Andy.Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-34138222451100832112019-03-01T08:43:06.751+00:002019-03-01T08:43:06.751+00:00"based around the character’s life up to the ..."based around the character’s life up to the time the game starts. . . you end up with a character with a history, a context in which his or her skills make sense,"<br /><br />That sounds a lot like Barbarians of Lemuria and its derivatives. Skills are abstractly determined by a character's past Career history, with greater experience being represented by a higher rating in that Career. A starting character has 4 points to distribute between 4 different Careers (a score of 0 is allowed, otherwise there wouldn't be much variation). So even a starting character already has an interesting back-story.<br /><br />Characters also have 4 Attributes (Strength, Agility, Mind, Appeal). For difficult actions "task rolls" are made on 2d6 + relevant attribute + relevant career + difficulty modifiers. (Score 9+ to succeed.)<br /><br />If you can plausibly argue that one of your careers confers skills relevant to the action you can add your score in that career. If you have no relevant Career experience at all you may take a penalty or, occasionally, be prohibited from making the attempt. For that reason even a score of 0 can be useful (representing only a little experience, or even just an innate talent for whatever it is).<br /><br />It may be worth noting that a lot of the time success can be assumed:<br /><br />"The mundane actions that your character performs will automatically succeed – buying food, walking down the street, talking to the city guard and so on. Even trickier actions can be carried out without a task roll if your Hero has the appropriate career (even a career rank of 0 will help here) - if you are a merchant, then buying uncommon items isn’t too difficult. Most characters should be able to obtain a few coins to buy a plate of food by recourse to their careers; a thief can pick a few pockets in the marketplace, a minstrel can play a rousing tune in a tavern, a blacksmith can mend a few farming implements etc.<br /><br />"It is only when the action can have some sort of repercussions that you should normally resort to the task roll." (One example it gives is the minstrel performing before the king: you really don't want that to go wrong!)<br /><br />There is still some number-crunching in there, but it's a lot less than in games with an extensive skill list.Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06787043511154360299noreply@blogger.com