tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post8821664384096247019..comments2024-03-27T21:18:33.034+00:00Comments on Fabled Lands: Don't call him Chun!Dave Morrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-724520852774374722020-09-22T20:03:58.484+01:002020-09-22T20:03:58.484+01:00My concept was that if you want to do a Dying Eart...My concept was that if you want to do a Dying Earth setting that draws on the characters within that setting, that might be a way to do it. Basically all I did up there was fuse Chun the Unavoidable and Freddy Kreuger. A Nightmare on the Dying Earth.johntfshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16005496604068259398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-88856482431169264022020-09-22T08:24:17.874+01:002020-09-22T08:24:17.874+01:00Nigel, I think if a game write-up simply recounts ...Nigel, I think if a game write-up simply recounts the plot events -- this and then this and then this -- then it's not going to work as a literary form. For that you need to take the events as a framework for a character study. That's what I was trying to do with The Conclave, but as Paul Mason pointed out, if you read that expecting a narrative in the formal literary sense then you'll be disappointed. It's Isherwood's Goodbye to Berlin rather than Harris's Munich.<br /><br />John, that scenario sounds much better than the WD one -- and it could be written without any reference to Vance's original story, just taking that as the inspirational springboard.Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-505781450748310162020-09-22T04:06:45.862+01:002020-09-22T04:06:45.862+01:00Okay, that makes a bit more sense. I will say tha...Okay, that makes a bit more sense. I will say that I don't think there's anything wrong with a taking a story as inspiration or a starting point but trying to replicate it in play won't work well.<br /><br />I admit that I don't know anything about The Dying Earth setting, but maybe Liane the Wayfarer had friends (or, more likely, enemies and/or creditors) and these "associates" have hired the PCs to find him, which is why they're in this area in the first place.<br /><br />When they meet Lith, she tells them that Liane passed by and was going to recover the other half of her tapestry and she'd be ever-so-grateful to the PCs if they brought it back to her. <br /><br />They'll head to the temple, passing the Teostalt and then finding the "tapestry" - which is actually some old cloth with an illusion on it that has some of the threads Lith seeks woven into it. Presumably the PCs take and head out, perhaps noticing that the pedestal where the statue was is now empty. Cue Teostaldt attack. It fights them for a couple rounds and retreats.<br /><br />If they deliver the "tapestry" Lith is grateful but basically penniless. She might give them a potion or two or some other minor magic, but otherwise, the scenario is over.<br /><br />Except that now Chun comes after them. They begin having nightmares of being pursued. The shadows seem darker, the winds colder. See, Chun isn't actually a fully physical being. It's a spirit of fear and vengeance. Now it haunts the PCs, denying them full rest, visiting their dreams, exhausting and terrorizing them until it's fed on their fear enough to temporarily achieve a physical form. At which point it harvests their eyes. <br /><br />The key to beating Chun lies in finding a way (up to the GM) of forcing it into the real world before it's fully empowered. Then it can be killed. In the meantime, everywhere they go, the PCs will be hunted and haunted because they cannot avoid... the Unavoidable.<br /><br />johntfshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16005496604068259398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-79721136449808254912020-09-22T01:10:08.732+01:002020-09-22T01:10:08.732+01:00Oh and I guess the Bloodsword novels too... maybe ...Oh and I guess the Bloodsword novels too... maybe I’ve answered my question! Nigelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13008412474153353926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-74204940748676204082020-09-22T01:09:30.685+01:002020-09-22T01:09:30.685+01:00I guess that’s sort of what you’ve done with your ...I guess that’s sort of what you’ve done with your Conclave write up, albeit it’s not a traditional novel/narrative structure. Nigelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13008412474153353926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-83962555657357994802020-09-22T01:07:35.250+01:002020-09-22T01:07:35.250+01:00Do you think it works the other way, i.e. turn a s...Do you think it works the other way, i.e. turn a scenario into a work of fiction? I was going to point to the enormous commercial success of the Dragonlance novels but I must confess I can’t now quite recall the order in which that was produced. There’s a podcast somewhere in which Tracy Hickman walks through the history/sequence of how he and Margaret Weis wrote it... Nigelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13008412474153353926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-90516644430404290232020-09-21T22:10:52.362+01:002020-09-21T22:10:52.362+01:00I really do hope nobody reads this scenario (or wo...I really do hope nobody reads this scenario (or worse: plays in it) before they read the stories.Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-10888431924514969272020-09-21T22:09:35.475+01:002020-09-21T22:09:35.475+01:00When I say "if you're going to turn a wor...When I say "if you're going to turn a work of fiction into a scenario" I'm talking about a *specific* work of fiction, not the universe the author set it in. So a scenario based on "Rogues in the House" would lose 90% of what makes that a great story, but obviously a campaign set in the Hyborian Age would be perfectly feasible. The problem with turning good stories into scenarios is that they are not only plot; they are vehicles for character and incident in which the "plot" is the least interesting element. So, yes, a campaign set in the Dying Earth could be great. But a game based on a story like "Liane the Wayfarer" can only ever be a pale travesty of the original work.Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-34979470111799315932020-09-21T20:09:43.264+01:002020-09-21T20:09:43.264+01:00Do you consider H. P. Lovecraft's work to be o...Do you consider H. P. Lovecraft's work to be of real quality? His "cosmic horror" concepts have influenced horror writing since the 1920s. As of next year Chaosium's Call of Cthulhu RPG will have been around for 40 years.<br /><br />Despite have never read it, I think it's fair to say that an RPG set in The Dying Earth would greatly benefits from a more free-wheeling, cinematic system as opposed to something crunchy like D&D. It's a bit hard to get swept up in wonder while you're busy calculating you "to hit" damage, movement rate and encumbrance.johntfshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16005496604068259398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-4706927545671511852020-09-21T19:55:59.486+01:002020-09-21T19:55:59.486+01:00For this scenario, I'd have Lith draw them a m...For this scenario, I'd have Lith draw them a map to the temple. When they get there if they search some of the other, more recent eyeless corpses they find very similar map. Maybe find a journal detailed how Lith had been ravaged and now this guy was going to retrieve her tapestry and avenge her.<br /><br />Maybe a Ranger or wilderness type might notice that there actually seems to be a bit of a path that's been worn (due to quite a few folks traveling it) between Lith's house and the temple.<br /><br />And if they miss all that, well, I guess Lith got really luck and will soon be on her way home.johntfshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16005496604068259398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-30311254880981761872020-09-20T18:12:51.045+01:002020-09-20T18:12:51.045+01:00That's the problem with taking a story, boilin...That's the problem with taking a story, boiling it down till all that's left is the skeleton of plot, then covering it with a skin of rules and passing it off as an RPG adventure. The story was designed to be inhabited by the characters Vance created, not a team of PCs.<br /><br />I'm not saying that a Dying Earth RPG is a bad idea -- although I wouldn't do anything like the existing one, which obsesses too much on the surface gloss and literariness of Vance's world. But if you're going to turn a work of fiction into a scenario, it's best to pick fiction that's almost entirely plot-driven (like H Rider Haggard's She) rather than something of real quality like The Dying Earth.Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-43993523217337588442020-09-20T18:05:37.994+01:002020-09-20T18:05:37.994+01:00You know what really got me into RPGs? The WEG St...You know what really got me into RPGs? The WEG Star Wars RPG. I'd played around with with AD&D and Warhammer. The first struck me as an exercise in robbery-homicide. The second struck as more dangerous, less rewarding robbery-homicide. Then the GM ran Star Wars.<br /><br />I'd been a fan of Star Wars since I was a little kid and know I got to play in that universe, explore those worlds from the inside. And it was amazing. This is what RPGs can do - take you from being a passive viewer of someone else's tale to an active participant in your own story.<br /><br />As for "should it have been done" I don't know. The Dying Earth came out 18 years before I was born. I still haven't read any of it barring some Wikipedia ploy synopses. I will say that when I've enjoyed a game setting, I've tended to purchase the fiction tie-ins for that setting. So, maybe if I'd experienced The Dying Earth from the inside, I might well have wanted to explore it through the original fiction.<br /><br />I will say that probably this scenario wouldn't have done the trick. One thing Oliver kind of missed was the idea of Chun the Unavoidable. The PCs aren't trying to avoid him. They're actively seeking him out to kill him and retrieve the tapestry. If anything, they're hoping he can't avoid Them.<br /><br />While I haven't read the story, the implication is that Chun is a relentless stalker and pursuer. Here, the PCs just head straight for him for a kill-or-be-killed battle, so they never experience that aspect of him.johntfshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16005496604068259398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-34480080231421103692020-09-20T15:18:25.466+01:002020-09-20T15:18:25.466+01:00How well you know me, Nigel :-) But I do find that...How well you know me, Nigel :-) But I do find that when my players miss the clues it does end up more interesting than the adventure I had planned. I've often cited the adventure that hinged on the murdered major's housekeeper being the daughter of a woman he had an affair with in India twenty-odd years earlier. The players noticed the resemblance in a picture but assumed she was an immortal lamia. Whoops. But I was going to give a more helpful example... I began an adventure that involved the players looking into some new clues in the Ripper case of a few years before. The idea was they would uncover a Cthulhoid SF plot that had been going on in Whitechapel at the same time. I anticipated it would take about ten sessions. In fact they blundered from misconception to assumption, spinning out a campaign that went on for nearly a year of real-time. I did give nudges from time to time -- eg an NPC valet rediscovering a note in his master's effects and asking them a question that made them realize they'd overlooked a vital lead. So with a softly-softly approach to railroading I brought them back onto the main investigation via digressions that amounted to 80% of all the playing time. I counted it a success, anyway!Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-86429075714309332102020-09-20T14:03:39.564+01:002020-09-20T14:03:39.564+01:00The scenario raises an interesting GMing question....The scenario raises an interesting GMing question. How do you feed information to players without signposting the whole thing? How do you drop clues, perhaps along with some red herrings, without the whole thing feeling spoon-fed or contrived. I guess this is why I don’t like investigative scenarios. I read a comment recently On the DW Facebook page from someone saying the Miller’s Tale was their favourite DW adventure. I must confess that whilst I like the tone and premise I’m not sure I could successfully GM it. My experience has often been that either players ignore clues the GM has dropped or latched on like a pit bull to innocuous and irrelevant colour/descriptive commentary or both. I suppose it’s then an opportunity to pivot and improvise. But (and I hear them calling “all aboard” as the train gets ready for some GM railroading) how do u at least give the players a good chance of finding the clues without hinting and asking “so did you want to check...”? I suspect you will say Dave that if the players miss the elephant in the room of a clue then spending the whole time searching for missing pachyderms IS the adventure...but it feels a bit of a let down...Nigelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13008412474153353926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-77852186229282904052020-09-20T10:39:04.810+01:002020-09-20T10:39:04.810+01:00I didn't want to imply Oliver had done a bad j...I didn't want to imply Oliver had done a bad job. To misquote Johnson, it's not whether it was done well, but whether it should have been done at all.Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-12964661845842287352020-09-19T17:27:30.573+01:002020-09-19T17:27:30.573+01:00It... doesn't come off as that bad. It seems ...It... doesn't come off as that bad. It seems like a reasonably faithful adaptation of the story into an adventure. If it was me, I'd have let them fight some guardian beast at the temple and swipe the tapestry at which point they start getting stalked and ambushed by Chun/Papu, who cannot truly die until they destroy his cloak of eyes or something.johntfshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16005496604068259398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-53679282977679714802020-09-19T17:18:49.074+01:002020-09-19T17:18:49.074+01:00I do feel very guilty. If it had been my own scena...I do feel very guilty. If it had been my own scenario I think I'd have quietly junked it. But I suppose I'm Max Brod to Oliver's Kafka... er, not that Oliver is dead yet...Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-55933701617443390982020-09-19T14:43:29.356+01:002020-09-19T14:43:29.356+01:00Heh. I remember playing the original WD adventure...Heh. I remember playing the original WD adventure back in the day with the names unchanged. Might have been my first experience at doing my best not to metagame with out of character knowledge since I was the only person at the table who'd actually read Vance at all. I mostly sat back and let the other PCs make the decisions and wound up being horribly killed for my efforts. IIRC some of the group survived after wounding Chun so badly it backed off and (furious at having been tricked) went back and burned down the cottage with thrown torches and fire arrows. Then they were all killed over the next couple of days after Chun healed up and got to stalking them. I suppose they did at least cut off the influx of new victims for him.<br /><br />As you said, trying to make this into a D&D adventure is like vandalizing fine art. Some things just shouldn't be messed with. Dick McGeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14521293874696659063noreply@blogger.com