I recently cracked open the beautiful hardback edition of Dragon Warriors produced by James Wallis’s Magnum Opus Press. As a matter of fact there are some copies on sale on DriveThruRPG at the moment – not at all cheap compared to the fiver my Tirikelu rules will set you back, but definitely worth it.
In the preface I talked a bit about my and Oliver Johnson’s thinking when designing the game:
“Our aim was to put something dark, spooky and magical back into fantasy role-playing. Loathing the medieval Disneyland of Dungeons & Dragons, with its theme park taverns, comedy dwarves, and cannon-fodder profusion of monsters, we made Legend as vividly dreamlike as the Middle Ages seem in stories, a place dripping with a European folktale sensibility. The flavor of what fantasy ought to be.It’s nice to see old work you did getting some love. Normally when that happens people are heaping praise on the land of Legend. The Dragon Warriors rules themselves get overlooked, even by me. (Especially by me, in fact, since I’m forever kicking myself for not listening to Oliver when he said we should dispense with the polyhedral dice.) But then I came across this in-depth review by Charles Akins in which it’s the DW system as much as the world that grabs him. If I ever get around to finishing Jewelspider for publication it’s going to have a new D6-driven system, but Mr Akins’ comments still give me a warm glow inside. As does this mini-review on Legacy Game Mastering:
“In Legend, faerie creatures are as amoral as cats and as heartless as children. A goblin in the rafters can spoil a whole night’s sleep, while a troll under the bridge ahead is reason to change your travel plans. And these creatures are rare. Walking into a tavern in Legend and finding an elf at the bar would be like strolling into your real-life local and seeing a polar bear.
“In the world of Dragon Warriors, human emotion is just as strong as magic. The scenario ‘A Box of Old Bones’ makes it clear that the miracles associated with holy relics are sufficiently rare and vaguely manifested that a fake relic can go unnoticed for years, getting by on the strength of its placebo effect and the willingness of clergy and believers to collude in seeing evidence where they want to see it. Our rule was never to evoke magic if a non-supernatural plot point would do.”
And if you should feel like a return to the lands of Legend, Serpent King Games have made the core Dragon Warriors rulebook available free as a PDF until the end of this month. That's better than a dragon spitting in your eye. (Although I should add that in all my time in Legend, the nearest we've yet got to a dragon is hearing an ominous slithering in a ditch in the forest one time. Gotta love that low fantasy.)
It seems like an awesome setting with slightly clunky rules based on the scenarios you've posted here. I've gotten to the point of wanting my rules to be as light as possible. It's one reason I've come to prefer Savage Worlds.
ReplyDeleteOur group briefly experimented with Ulisses Spiel's Dark Eye game. It seemed like a fun, interesting setting, by oh dear God, that rules system. Character generation took hours. Rolling skill checks required three separate attribute checks on D20s. It was going to be a giant pain to play through.
I've run into a few games like that. Awesome settings with horrible rules. Probably the most memorable game to me is JAGS Wonderland. The tagline for it is "You aren't losing your grip on reality. Reality is losing its grip on you." It's a lovely, spooky, brilliant worldbook featuring Louis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland as a modern absurdist horror setting. And it's powered by a rules system so complex as to drive a tax accountant to madness.
Dark takes on Alice in Wonderland are kind of a running joke with me. For the last fifteen years I've been ranting every time one comes out as a comic book, videogame, you name it. "What, *another* one..?" But they keep on coming.
DeleteSorry, that's just a bugbear of mine. I completely agree with your point. While writing up my Tirikelu RPG for The Eye of All-Seeing Wonder -- all 80 pages of it -- I wrote two other systems for the same setting, one 3 pages long and one just 1 page.
I do understand why people can find some modern systems too abstract. You have to have players who appreciate the reason for paring down the rules, and who are willing to add their own flavorsome interpretation to what's rolled.
An example: a comment on that DW video mentions that it's nice to separate out the function of a shield. It adds to the "story" created by the combat rolls. A simpler system would subsume the shield into the general armour value, but that simplicity comes at a cost. Each group must find the balance that suits their tastes.
Btw: "a rules system so complex as to drive a tax accountant to madness" -- they should pay you to use that quote on the back of the rulebook, John :-)
DeleteGrew up on this game and i think its the best system ive played the rules are far from clunky its simple and flows beautifully allowing for a great roleplaying experience
DeleteThe rules for Deadlands are slightly more complicated than the normal Savage Worlds rules, but that's more a function of establishing the flavor of the game. Whenever you gamble, have a formal gunfight or use a certain kind of magic, there's an extra bit involving poker cards.
ReplyDeleteAs far as Wonderland goes, I'm kind of a sucker for stories that involve blended realities or the idea of cracks in the walls of the universe. Another thing I liked was the way that the first two-thirds of the book is devoted roleplaying, history and a slightly twisted examination of the American mental health care system. This all occurs before any kind of game rules or statistics are introduced.
You see, I'd like all of that (blended realities? cracks in the walls of the universe? yes please!) if the authors didn't also feel the need to co-opt Lewis Carroll's work. But that's me.
DeleteDidn't Fringe have those?
DeleteI gotta rewatch Fringe from start to finish. Only this time I'll miss out "Brave New World" (the 2-parter at the end of s4) as it was a filler in case they didn't get picked up for s5. So I don't really think of it as canon.
DeleteDragon Warriors was my first introduction to tabletop RPGs (having picked it up from the Library mistaking it for a conventional gamebook), and it's still one of my favourites. I love Legend as a setting, it's true, but I felt like the rules really reflected the same ideas, and I feel like they're very distinctive in that regard.
ReplyDeleteI really like the separation between Attack, Defence, Armour and Shields. That no matter how good a fighter you are, if you go up against someone in plate armour while you're carrying a knife, you're only going to hurt them if you get very, very lucky. And the splitting of Defence is a masterstroke - basically, if you wade into the middle of a fight with ten people, you're going to get hammered. Unless you're wearing plate armour and they're carrying daggers, of course... :o)
I liked the character archetypes too - the distinction between Knight and Barbarian as very different fighting styles; and I've never really seen anything similar to the Mystic in other systems, yet the Profession fits Legend perfectly.
Mind you, the Blood Sword books did a good job with that too - the Sage and the Trickster felt very apposite to the world of Legend.
Great stuff!
Thanks, Raymond. It really means a lot to me to know how many people got their start in roleplaying through DW.
DeleteI think Dragon Warriors was the first rpg I really understood. Partially thanks to the format as jumping from a solo adventure book to DW was easy, almost a natural step. If I were to play DW again I would use the D6 rules system of Parallel Worlds (a Swedish generic rpg) rather than the original one. Probably I would even use another setting than Legend. What I would keep is the atmosphere and the way faeries and other mythological/supernatural creatures act in DW. The characters wouldn't be allowed to use magic (at least not initially) and there wouldn't be a lot of magical stuff. My vision is a blend of Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell and Medieval Scandinavia and Europe . For me that is the legacy and soul of Dragon Warriors.
ReplyDeleteWhat you're describing sounds a little like the Jewelspider RPG I keep tinkering with, Joakim. There's a taste of that coming up here in a few months. As for Parallel Worlds -- that's *another* Swedish game I need to get :-) Is there an English edition, or am I going to have to learn Swedish?
DeleteNice! Looking forward taking a peek at that! Sadly there is no English translation of PW, but considering how often I mention it on English forums I'll soon have to translate it myself! The game itself is free and available online. But then again, do learn Swedish - it's a nice language! ;)
DeleteA friend of mine is motor biking across Sweden right now, so I've been thinking it's high time I travelled there. And if so then I should at least learn enough Swedish to be able to order a beer :-)
DeleteVisit me and I'll teach you! :)
DeleteI might just take you up on that...
DeleteHi Dave, anything else you can tell us about "Jewelspider" at the moment - I'm intrigued ! Also, while I always liked "Dragon Warriors" as a title (certainly as an 11 year old) I agree it is slightly misleading in that the world contained within its pages is absolutely not one which you would expect to have any "Dragon Wars". I suppose Corgi would have vetoed alternative titles more in keeping with the mood such as "Haunted Survivors" ? : )
ReplyDeleteThe title was Oliver's idea, John. He said, "It has to have 'dragons' in it," and I agreed, though not without reluctance. I always liked a title my old chum Nick Henfrey (one of our original EPT crowd) came up with: "Dead Men & Heroes". Quite a Leone vibe to that, but too serious for Corgi at the time.
DeleteI think Morricone could have given you a good score as well (particularly for 'Invaders & Ancients') Que - "The Last Days of Legend", "For A Few Dragons More" et al !
DeleteMorricone and Rick Wakeman were the soundtrack to my earliest Tekumel games. Later came Clannad's Legend, the more-or-less official Dragon Warriors soundtrack. And "The Greatest Prize" in DW book 4 was partly improvised to Mask (Vangelis) - the scene we later always referred to as the Thing in the Well moment. It was a little more Quatermass and a little less dungeony in the original.
Delete"The truth of it all died with them, a dozen centuries ago, but they were probably into Vangelis..." ; )
DeleteI have Clannad always ready to go on my 'electronic turntable' but will have to look up the Vangelis album !
DeleteDragon Warriors was our school's introduction to roleplaying games. There was a book club thing where you got a leaflet with teeny tiny pictures of books and you could order them. You also got a free pen.
ReplyDeleteThere was a tiny thumbnail of the Dragon Warriors cover and the title. That was all.
I think ten of the boys in my class bought it!
I wonder how many of them are still roleplaying today? Even if they're not, hopefully they still remember their early adventures!
DeleteI would just like to say that DW was a staple game for my school friends and I. I opened the gaming cave and found my 13 year son old and his gaming buddies rolling up up Knights Barbarians and warlocks to wade into Legend.......I’ve been drafted in now as the GM. It has brought back a host of happy memories fantastic game mechanics excellent world setting and nostalgia what could be better....”who has the highest reflexes...”fight!”
ReplyDeleteThat's made my day, David. Thanks!
DeleteDave. I have to say that it’s nice to return the favour as dragon warriors has made many of mine. My heroic(with a very small h) players are currently hot on the heels of Ned the hobgoblin
ReplyDeleteI never imagined when Oliver and I wrote those books that they would be firing up the imagination of a whole new generation of players 35 years later. I wish them luck with Ned :-)
DeleteDragon warriors was the first rpg i ever played and after 30 yrs its still the best system i have played.
ReplyDeleteMy children are starting to show an interest as well i can not wait to introduce them to Bretwald and start them on yhier first quest 😃
It's marvellous to hear of all the DW players who are now getting their kids started in roleplaying. My only regret is basing the game on polyhedral dice rather than (as Oliver wanted) just d6. So I hope you still have your d4s, d20s, etc!
DeleteThey certainly do my kids are slogging through Mungoda mud
ReplyDeleteI have asked my kids about the dice and they like the dice variety. Purchase of personal dice was one of their first purchases
This game has been a life saver during lockdown. I picked up these books in my school library and while I enjoy playing 5th edition. I have ran a game of DW and got back into writing homebrew stories mixing in the stories from the books. It has made Sundays a pure joy rather than more endless days of the same drudge. We have a DW fb group, re-counting the adventures along with added art for inspiration. Unlike other games which become either roleplay or combat each Sunday has plenty of both. Sometimes with puzzles and riddles thrown in. It has allowed me to create a high story arc given the rules are so easy to use. I have adapted the world slightly and still a year later my players are only just making level 5 and there is so much room to grow. They have not even left the island of Albion yet. I love the classes I love the system. I love the treasure that is Dragon Warriors. 48 this summer and still playing.
ReplyDeleteThanks -- it warms my heart to hear that. Sunday was our main gaming day when I was just starting out with roleplaying, and many an otherwise dreary afternoon was made fun and exciting by those games.
DeleteI know what you mean about combat/roleplay balance. I'm currently playing in a GURPS game set in Albion and every fight takes an entire session. Nobody could level that complaint at DW!
Wow, that video is so old I was still in my old house. Thanks for the eyeballs sent to my channel! Also, this is a really good quick synopsis of Dragon Warriors. I hope to get more people looking at and playing this wonderful game around me, but we shall see.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Kyle. I'm looking to move myself from the house in which I've written all of my books since Dragon Warriors #6. (The late '80s -- wow.) Who knows what the new place has in store -- but onwards!
DeleteDear Mr Morris, I too discovered the game in the 1980s but it was difficult to obtain all the books. Unfortunately, not all of them were released in South Africa at the time. I finally completed my collection in the 2000s! However, I absolutely loved the game. It was - and still is - an amazing role-playing experience. I would just like to ask you about the Warlock's skills, namely "Arrow Cutting" and "Fight Blind". I always thought that they were better suited for the Assassin class. Would you mind commenting on why you made these design choices? Thank you very much.
ReplyDeleteThanks for dropping by, Stanley. You know, that's a very good question and I don't have the answer. Those skills certainly seem like a good fit for an assassin (Fight Blind sounds like something a mystic might be able to do, too) and I'd be inclined to allow them in place of another ability if the player can make a good case for how & why they studied them.
DeleteHello Mr Morris.
DeleteJust a quick thank you for the amazing time I had playing Dragon Warriors when I was 10-16 years old. The elven crystals adventure was absolutely amazing, and I am now reliving these adventures with my children.
I am also loving the direction of role playing gaming, getting back to simple systems such as 'Old School Essentials'.
I do think many are missing out, because Dragon Warriors fits the old school way perfectly and many gamers missed the glory of Dragon Warriors.
The scenes you created and your brilliant writing was just second to none. When I played D&D after DW I was quite disappointed with the atmosphere and depth.
Any way, thanks again you made my childhood a blast. Also Blood Sword was fantastic ;-)
Thanks! And Oliver will be pleased too -- it often feels like I get all the credit for DW, because I wrote the books that focused on the rules, but without The Elven Crystals and The Power of Darkness half the atmosphere of the DW/Blood Sword world would be missing.
DeleteOh crikey yes, I should never forget Mr Oliver Johnson!
DeleteI am also doing some reliving of my youth and have bought the whole back catalogue of Fabled Lands from Amazon, I never got to play those.
I also bought 2 of your later ones, Necklace of Skulls and Heart of Ice, which have blown me away.
I'll stop gushing now, thanks for the reply, big thanks to Mr Oliver Johnson also.
All the best,
Wade
Thanks again, Wade. Did you ever play Down Among The Dead Men? That's one of my favourites of my own books, but it sounds like you have plenty to be getting on with in any case!
DeleteNo I didn't play that one, and now can see a few others in that series also. I've just ordered Down Among The Dead Men, thank you for the recommendation.
ReplyDeleteI've now only just noticed your newer VulcanVerse range, and some authored by the great Jamie Thomson (I was a huge fan of Way of the Tiger and that world).
Well like you say, plenty to get on with, and I will be definitely buying those VulcanVerse books also.
Thanks again,
Wade.
To my disappointment the Vulcanverse books haven't won over many fans, but I think they're not bad if you enjoy sandbox exploration with stories waiting to be discovered. I'll be interested to hear what you think -- though I guess they're not really up to the standard of Way of the Tiger or Down Among the Dead Men.
DeleteI will definitely pick one or two up. Just re ordering other missing game books for my old battered, loaned out, collection. Essentially reliving my youth a little...
DeleteI will keep an eye on this blog, and check in once I've played a few more of your new ones. I've still got tons of Fabled Lands to play also, quite exited for those. Especially with the info gained here for ease of play and hints. Finding the time is the main issue, like all of us!
Regards,
Wade
Time is the killer these days. I have stacks of old Marvel comics to read in digital editions (reliving my youth) but can't seem to find a spare few weeks. Maybe I should write a shorter gamebook next time -- The Hammer of the Sun is as big as two and a half Fabled Lands books or four and a bit Fighting Fantasy ones.
DeleteThank you I will pick that one up. I don't mind long quite epic adventures. That's why Blood Sword series was one of my favourites. Obviously The Hammer of the Sun will be more sandbox, but I look forward to trying it.
DeleteThanks again, it truly is an honour speaking with you. I remember back to the cold NZ winter days tucked up, reading and re-reading those amazing Dragon Warriors adventures. The art, the setting, everything was wonderful.
Thank you and Mr Oliver Johnson for some of the best childhood memories anyone could ever have.
It means a lot to us to have reached out and brought joy and wonder to so many people around the world. One day I really have to get over to NZ -- my mother loved travelling there and used to go for a couple of months every year. I probably should come in the summer, though, right?
DeleteYes summer would be the best bet, Feb can be lovely. Very similar to English weather.
DeleteNZ gets called 'The Land of the Long White Cloud' for good reason unfortunately.
Top to bottom there are beautiful spots, much like the UK. A great thing maybe, would be visit some of your Mother's favourite spots.
Have a great weekend.
I have several sweaters and t-shirts that she brought me back from the Bay of Islands, so maybe that's a good place to start?
DeleteYes, very beautiful places up there. I'm looking forward to getting back to England myself, I have small pockets of family near Diss and Norwich. Overwhelmed by the history when I was there.
ReplyDeleteHi there I've recently been running dragon warriors and the blood swords books as a giant campaign for my players , everyone's found it very enjoyable . I feel he would make a great RPG campaign something that could rival masks of Nyarlathotep . it would suit a multi RPG system something in like in the vain of thieves world box set .
ReplyDeleteNow that Oliver Whawell has kindly given me all his conversions to DW rules, I really have no excuse not to publish a Blood Sword campaign book -- maybe to accompany the CRPG from Prime Games.
Delete