tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post2361901635465006451..comments2024-03-28T21:13:53.845+00:00Comments on Fabled Lands: Gamebook design: finding workarounds for missing codewordsDave Morrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-30998159145853297892016-07-26T18:25:35.673+01:002016-07-26T18:25:35.673+01:00Before a programmer jumps on this, I meant multipl...Before a programmer jumps on this, I meant multiple inheritance, not polymorphism. Oops.Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-27259731088897160322016-07-26T09:00:11.562+01:002016-07-26T09:00:11.562+01:00Sticking with my OOD analogy, you can always have ...Sticking with my OOD analogy, you can always have polymorphism. If you inherit traits from two or more classes, though, game balance requires that you'd lose out in other ways -- attribute scores, say. But I don't think we're rushing to incorporate specialisations. It's just a customisation option.Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-2238041401540480112016-07-26T08:57:28.649+01:002016-07-26T08:57:28.649+01:00The problem with asking the player questions about...The problem with asking the player questions about their history (like "did you start in book 1?") rather than codewords (like "do you have Auric?") is that after playing the books multiple times it's not always easy to recall the specific details of your current character. In an app version that would be no problem, of course, but in print we tend to use codewords or titles to remember that for you.<br /><br />As Paul says, going back to Vervayens without being saviour would loop you through the gorgon encounter, which wouldn't make sense (I guess; I haven't taken another look at it but I trust Paul's judgement) in which case it is a glitch. It's so much easier to patch things like that in software!Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-17324202843925832762016-07-25T22:39:40.284+01:002016-07-25T22:39:40.284+01:00I quite like the idea of specializations. I think ...I quite like the idea of specializations. I think it would be important to be careful about making sure you couldn't have multiple ones though. I wouldn't use Titles, since they're more about things you have done.<br />And as for whether to put these in Book 7, I think it's a great idea. If you're going to do it, best to start now. Question is, how much out of your way is it to have these specializations, and enough hooks for them that it feels appropriate?<br /><br />BTW Paul: Have you read Michael Ward's DestinyQuest books? The second one, in particular, does a great job of taking readers through a jungle environment.Vanderveckenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13388238409066048161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-29704912809118853172016-07-25T20:33:57.149+01:002016-07-25T20:33:57.149+01:00Why didn't you opt to use an option like: &quo...Why didn't you opt to use an option like: "If you began your career anywhere except Book 3, go to X"?<br />or:<br />"If you have been to the Island of Vervayens, even if you do not have the code words" or something?<br />If, as so many people have said (including the author of this blog), the future of gamebooks is as software, why can't we find a better way to do this without cheating?<br /><br />Also, it seems that the way you have set this up, if you went to the Island of Vervayens without becoming its saviour, there is no way back? Is that intentional?Vanderveckenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13388238409066048161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-67210935491306222612016-07-22T13:14:50.677+01:002016-07-22T13:14:50.677+01:00That's the object-oriented approach, certainly...That's the object-oriented approach, certainly. The six professions are root classes but that doesn't rule out innovations in the system as long as new types inherit from those classes.Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-57459193945390355352016-07-22T11:31:18.550+01:002016-07-22T11:31:18.550+01:00My own rule of thumb is that, if there's no ri...My own rule of thumb is that, if there's no risk, you shouldn't loop endlessly through. Climbing Starspike Island once is fine; that'll give you a point of CHARISMA. Don't do it again and again to max out that stat, though. Similarly, think hard before you fight those bandits near Castle Ravayne a million times (though who hasn't done that to shoot up to 10th Rank at least once, though?).<br /><br />I think looping through trading routes is fine. That's what real traders do, after all. There's one in FL3 in particular that is pretty low-risk, and high-profit. Meh, go with it. There are a thousand other ways to make lots of money in Fabled Lands, even if you don't. Paul Grestyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12928818666428286693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-11277241968576618352016-07-22T11:23:03.407+01:002016-07-22T11:23:03.407+01:00I'd been thinking about new professions for th...I'd been thinking about new professions for the Fabled Lands books. On the technical side, everything in The Serpent King's Domain (and FL8 onwards, should we go that far) has to be backwards-compatible with the existing six books - so you have to be conscious that those books don't give options for being a Druid, say, or a Healer, or an Astrologer… <br /><br />One way around this would be to present specialisations rather than entirely new professions – these would be Titles, essentially. For your Druid example, you could start as a Wayfarer or a Priest, and at some point you might discover the option to acquire the 'Druid' title. That way, you'd open up the options that are applicable to your base profession (Priest or Wayfarer, here), and future books would also grant options if you have the Druid title. <br /><br />I'll confess that I haven't put anything like this in The Serpent King's Domain just yet. Thoughts, anybody? Anybody who's coming back to read an older post, that is… Paul Grestyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12928818666428286693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-64124479472911270942016-07-18T11:48:27.818+01:002016-07-18T11:48:27.818+01:00I guess that example really is a glitch. We should...I guess that example really is a glitch. We should have used a tickbox to prevent the player looping through that encounter multiple times. Oops.Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-25635797318913799912016-07-18T11:28:18.073+01:002016-07-18T11:28:18.073+01:00I think even in Fabled lands 1 it is possible to &...I think even in Fabled lands 1 it is possible to "cheat" by pretending to do an infinite loop in one of the cities and get infinite money like that.<br />The question is if you rule it so that you can only get the reward once, or that you have to actually fully read all the sections of the infinite loop, leading to insanity and a lot of ingamebook cash!Blobbohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14758602111860881345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-45854212288795369202016-07-16T17:05:36.807+01:002016-07-16T17:05:36.807+01:00The question of cheating really merits its own pos...The question of cheating really merits its own post, so thanks for kicking off the debate with some well-considered points, Tobias. Obviously I don't condone cheating in a roleplaying game. That's just disrespectful to the other players. In a gamebook - well, the player is only cheating themselves (themself?) but it begs the question why they feel the need to cheat. We don't want player-characters to die, mostly we just want them to feel a sense of urgency and danger. The idea that you can get killed in a fight supposedly provides that, but if it actually happens it's merely tiresome.<br /><br />I'm not including death paras that are just put in to trim the flowchart - that's laziness on the part of the author. There was an early Baldur's Gate game that did that. Quite close to the start of the game you could go north or south. If you went north, you were killed by giant spiders or something. So why even include the option?<br /><br />But back to death by dice roll. As I've said before, Prof Barker's Adventures on Tekumel gamebooks don't do that. If you lose a fight you might be disarmed, or run away, or be enslaved, or knocked out, or dishonoured. None of those outcomes end the adventure.<br /><br />And then consider novels. Most of the time we aren't expecting the main character to get killed, but that doesn't mean we don't experience suspense and trepidation on their behalf. There are plenty of humiliations and setbacks that a character can suffer that are plenty dramatic but well short of death. That can work in gamebooks too. In my Frankenstein gamebook app, neither Frankenstein nor the creature can die until the story reaches a satisfying conclusion, but lots of other developments occur that are nail-bitingly exciting. (That's not me being immodest; it's Mrs Shelley's plot, after all.)<br /><br />Wrt adding new classes to Fabled Lands - be my guest. I can't guarantee they won't break the system, mind you. Jamie and I just figured on those six professions being the most archetypal, as each corresponds to one of the six abilities. So if I was representing a druid I'd just make the guy a priest. But it's all just a matter of taste.Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-13508038494932472252016-07-16T00:50:32.949+01:002016-07-16T00:50:32.949+01:00The role of cheating in gamebooks is a rather impo...The role of cheating in gamebooks is a rather important one, I think, which is why it has prompted some longer responses...<br /><br />In most video games, you can simply "save" and repeat battling the same foe or attempting the same quest over and over again until you succeed. If you mess up, you can just return to the point at which you saved the game. This in itself could be considered a form of cheating, but is perfectly acceptable in the world of video games. I personally prefer paper, dice and pencil adventures and have yet to find a good balance between cheating and playing by the book. <br /><br />Dave made an important point that when everything goes, it takes away from and can even ruin the experience. The adventure feels no longer challenging and loses its sense of excitement and element of surprise. If you simply re-roll the dice until you get the desirable result, you essentially strip the book of its game book character and, at best, turn it into a generic CYOA book. You might as well stop rolling the dice at all and simply always assume a favorable result and move on to the preferred section.<br /><br />However, it is equally frustrating if you keep dying and have to start over at section 1 all the time. FL is tough on starting characters, especially, I think, for those professions with low combat (and, therefore, defense) scores.. (I remember on my first FL adventure being eaten by cannibals just because I wanted to help this guy in the ally...) But even later death is always a possibility (e.g. randomly being turned into a mermaid and never returning again to human form...). To play through all six existing books without dying at any point, I find, is statistically close to impossible. Fortunately, FL allows several ways to keep cheating to a minimum, such as blessings and resurrection deals. However, you can never rule death out and if you have invested a ton of hours into one character, you really don't want him or her to die and start from scratch. Playing one long, continuous adventure with one character is far more enjoyable than playing many short-lived adventures that all end in death. Therefore, I yet have to find a good balance between cheating and playing by the book and would welcome any recommendations.<br /><br />On a separate note, I want to speak to Efrem's point about using common sense to deal with errors and mistakes in the book that were not intended by the author. I think this really speaks for itself and anyone who says otherwise must be pretty dogmatic and is a slave to the rigidity of his own mind. (However, whether the case regarding Vervayens Isle discussed by Paul above qualifies as such an error that needs fixing could itself be a topic of debate... maybe it is intentional that you cannot access all places with each character, just as some quests are reserved for specific professions). That being said, I think the bigger question is how much you want to bend the rules or even get creative and add your own rules to the gamebook. I have definitely thought about adding some rules and features to the FL series to make it more complex. For example, I think allowing some professions to learn magic spells as they rise in rank would be cool and make the professions more distinguishable. I also think it would be nice to add a new profession, the "druid" (which, I think, already exists in the FL RPG Core Role Book) with the following stats: Charisma 2, Combat 3, Magic 4, Sanctity 4, Scouting 5, Thievery 3). The druid would be a hybrid between wayfarer and mage and priest and would be allowed to accept the quests for mages and wayfarers.<br /><br />Anyway, these are just some thoughts I had. I am curious and would appreciate to hear what you guys think.Tobias Nhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04444237961299471963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-48068831721829344982016-07-15T09:44:50.349+01:002016-07-15T09:44:50.349+01:00Thanks for the feedback, Guillermo. That Epub3 ver...Thanks for the feedback, Guillermo. That Epub3 version is really just a beta. I did get it to run in the Chrome e-reader but that was a while ago (the spec may have changed) and I had to specifically turn on JavaScript. It runs properly in iBooks but that's not a lot of use, I realize, as then you might as well just use Inkle's version.<br /><br />It is frustrating, and when my contract with Profile Books lapses I'll get new versions done for all platforms. That could be years off, though.Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-56219113651040873242016-07-15T02:36:49.987+01:002016-07-15T02:36:49.987+01:00Update: the App works on Adobe Digital Editions (m...Update: the App works on Adobe Digital Editions (make sure you get the latest version of the software). It's not a smooth experience, though; I keep getting error messages every time I click on one of the hyperlinks. This is annoying but does not seem to prevent me from navigating the book. Bottom line is: the ePub version really needs an upgrade!Guillermohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01077567059723233238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-3406675216227667222016-07-15T02:24:05.218+01:002016-07-15T02:24:05.218+01:00Thanks for generously sharing the file! Unfortunat...Thanks for generously sharing the file! Unfortunately, I have bad news. It does not work on either the Chrome ePub reader nor on the most famous ePub3 reader for Android (Gitden). Is there any piece of software that you are 100% positive runs it adequately?Guillermohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01077567059723233238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-42849287819363035972016-07-14T17:16:11.819+01:002016-07-14T17:16:11.819+01:00Hi Guillermo, I have a feeling that Android versio...Hi Guillermo, I have a feeling that Android version doesn't work. You could try the Epub3 version:<br /><br />http://tinyurl.com/jrfoodp<br /><br />You'll need a fully-Epub3 compatible reader, ie Javascript-enabled. Google Chrome's e-reader is one IIRC. So, ironically, is iBooks!Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-52226949424300045162016-07-14T16:41:06.871+01:002016-07-14T16:41:06.871+01:00Is he any good at it? Try and get him to flog som...Is he any good at it? Try and get him to flog some of those unsold Falcon books. :)<br />I'd buy VR7 on concept alone!Andy Fletcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07735277481108984596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-31374858824092518272016-07-14T14:54:49.166+01:002016-07-14T14:54:49.166+01:00This is off-topic, but I have not been able to get...This is off-topic, but I have not been able to get a response from anybody on the matter, so I hope you don't mind.<br /><br />I got a new Android phone and would like to install the Frankenstein App (the Inkle one). When I try to download it, I get a message saying that my device is not compatible with the App. Could it be that my phone is too new for the App? Is the Android version still supported? Is there any way I can play it without going to the dark side (Apple devices)? Thanks in advance.Guillermohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01077567059723233238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-70143507805989072082016-07-14T13:29:53.749+01:002016-07-14T13:29:53.749+01:00Mark's last gamebook, never published but plan...Mark's last gamebook, never published but planned as the seventh Virtual Reality title, was set at a masked ball held by Death. I never saw it myself, but the series editor Ian Marsh remembers it well. The curious can go ask him about it at Fighting15s...Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-59211762289785321132016-07-14T11:29:58.857+01:002016-07-14T11:29:58.857+01:00Critics eh ? Could we call that a "Kermodian ...Critics eh ? Could we call that a "Kermodian rant" ? Hello to Jason Isaacs ! John Haganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16249152658906641154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-24840421727497879912016-07-14T08:17:59.133+01:002016-07-14T08:17:59.133+01:00He's pretty busy these days running a sales co...He's pretty busy these days running a sales company, but he has occasionally talked about returning to writing when he retires. I expect, like me, that he'd probably prefer to work on new things than go back to rework old books, though.Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-41001873794212794442016-07-13T23:58:12.887+01:002016-07-13T23:58:12.887+01:00Completely understand. Would Mark ever revisit the...Completely understand. Would Mark ever revisit the material though? I wince when I see anything I've written over five years ago and cringe at anything ten years old, and I'm no writer. So any author revisiting something 20 years on would start more or less from scratch and do it only out of love presumably? Has Mark written anything of note since gamebooks? Difficult to tell given the myriad of Smiths on Amazon!Andy Fletcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07735277481108984596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-72520730312776948922016-07-13T20:38:16.776+01:002016-07-13T20:38:16.776+01:00Before we could republish GB and COH, Andy, we'...Before we could republish GB and COH, Andy, we'd have to do a pretty thorough edit job on them. Both suffer from broken flow charts which means that it's possible to get completely stuck. I'd like to do it, as both books have much to admire, but it's quite a task to undertake when it's not my own work. I'd really like to see Mark rework them as novels, as they were perhaps the most novelistic of gamebooks and certainly the most ambitious in terms of replicating all the options available in a roleplaying adventure.Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-73901261595846771742016-07-13T18:28:30.042+01:002016-07-13T18:28:30.042+01:00I did once own all the VR books, Dave. Have recoll...I did once own all the VR books, Dave. Have recollected yours as CIF and reread. HOI the best, closely followed by DATDM. Two of the best gamebooks of all time. In fact, your ranking of all your gamebooks on a post a year or two back is pretty much spot on I'd say, possibly EOTD and COTV a little higher, if only for personal nostalgic reasons! I assume you've no plans to republish Mark's books? I'll pick them up second hand if they don't break the bank.Andy Fletcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07735277481108984596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-69269353339523691272016-07-13T08:40:16.368+01:002016-07-13T08:40:16.368+01:00That wasn't Mark's last gamebook, actually...That wasn't Mark's last gamebook, actually. He wrote Coils of Hate, which Per also reviewed. Mark would be the first to admit Coils worked better as a piece of prose than as a gamebook, but it was a marvellously evocative concept and well worth looking at.Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.com