tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post781578414101631598..comments2024-03-29T15:22:10.397+00:00Comments on Fabled Lands: What would Weegee do?Dave Morrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-27164870658709359482015-12-14T14:44:07.967+00:002015-12-14T14:44:07.967+00:00I haven't played any of them, but this review ...I haven't played any of them, but this review sounds very like the kind of reaction I'd have:<br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DXYAp9DbeoDave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-84658407757968021372015-12-13T00:43:32.690+00:002015-12-13T00:43:32.690+00:00And while we're on that tack, Alone in the Dar...And while we're on that tack, Alone in the Dark (the original one) deserves an honourable mention. Scary as hell, but I think you only get to shoot a gun once in the whole game - and that for not a lot of effect.Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-65065608927218385122015-12-13T00:40:23.193+00:002015-12-13T00:40:23.193+00:00Incidentally I've scheduled a post in the New ...Incidentally I've scheduled a post in the New Year that deals with social class in games, so you'll get some more flavour of our 1890s campaign therein.Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-55511029885038793182015-12-12T16:44:42.513+00:002015-12-12T16:44:42.513+00:00On reflection I can see the validity of miko's...On reflection I can see the validity of miko's point, videlicet that once you remove the elegance of Homer's poetry the underlying narrative only comprises a succession of incidents in which one fighter beats another fighter, as evidenced in the cinematic adaptation of he poiesis Ilias. To avoid the outcome of each fight being transparently at the whim of the author, it is necessary for there to be an element of ingenuity by which victory is earned. Mutatis mutandis et parva componere magnis, Kirk originally defeats Khan because he outthinks him, which is dramatically satisfying, whereas in the more recent version the denoument is merely decided by whether Khan or Spock is stronger.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-83741681595975840592015-12-11T23:19:08.949+00:002015-12-11T23:19:08.949+00:00Yes, but violence with deception is still violence...Yes, but violence with deception is still violence. When the Greeks snuck into Troy via the Trojan Horse, that wasn't the end of the story. All types of horrific violence followed - Neoptolemus kills the suppliant Priam, Astyanax gets thrown to his death, Polyxena's sacrificed at the tomb of Achilles...and on and on.<br /><br />Same for the Odyssey - When Odysseus tosses off his disguise, it's not as if the suitors shrug their shoulders and go home. No - Homer goes into quite some detail about how Odysseus and Telemachus slaughter all the suitors in fairly graphic ways.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-79492122256644952952015-12-11T15:50:24.959+00:002015-12-11T15:50:24.959+00:00It's true that the the great classics resolve ...It's true that the the great classics resolve key fights with a clever tactic, though. For example Yoshitsune bringing his cavalry down an "impossible" slope to surprise the superior force of Taira troops. Another is Zhuge Liang in Romance of the Three Kingdoms using the ploy of barges filled with straw to get the enemy to donate the arrows his side needed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-70860447091294050202015-12-09T05:04:57.795+00:002015-12-09T05:04:57.795+00:00I don't have to, as my writing is irrelevant t...I don't have to, as my writing is irrelevant to the point. Many writers much greater than all of us here already have done that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-90193874975786417212015-12-08T18:11:22.197+00:002015-12-08T18:11:22.197+00:00Miko - yep, good points.
Anonymous - I could keep...Miko - yep, good points.<br /><br />Anonymous - I could keep citing examples, but it's telling not showing. Why not try writing a story where the resolution hinges on a fight? I think then you'll see what I'm talking about.Davenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-22894001366192133052015-12-07T18:11:23.335+00:002015-12-07T18:11:23.335+00:00I don’t know what you mean by “linchpin of the plo...I don’t know what you mean by “linchpin of the plot.” If you’re saying that you’re condemning stories where the climax of the story or the resolution of the conflict is through violence, I still disagree.<br /><br />Lots of conflicts in stories are resolved ultimately by fights – I’ve given many examples, and can give lots more. That’s not to say that the fight is the only thing of interest in the story, or that the fight qua fight makes a story good. How the author describes the setting, the poetical devices used, the alteration of meter to fit the action – these are all things that make a poem art (if we’re talking about poetry). But let’s not fool ourselves in to how the conflict is resolved – it’s violence. Perseus has to jump through all these hoops and get all this great gear to defeat Medusa. But what’s the climax of that particular adventure? When he chops her head off. What’s the climax of David and Goliath? When he knocks Goliath in the head with a sling stone. Violence is wonderfully suited for climaxes and resolving tension.<br /><br />What you originally wrote seemed to condemn all violence as a cheap trick – well, in the process you’re condemning much of classic literature not only in the West, but in the world (what’s the climax of the Ramayana? Oh yeah, that giant battle between Rama and Ravana). Mentioning things like Captain Kirk fist fights is setting up a strawman…Violence can be done poorly, but so can love stories, dialogue, pacing, and characterization. If you want to see an analysis of how to do all these things poorly, look at Red Letter Media’s dissection of the Star Wars prequels.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-12994876530504023672015-12-07T17:32:18.056+00:002015-12-07T17:32:18.056+00:00Well yes - a lot of literary classics are full of ...Well yes - a lot of literary classics are full of violent deaths, but it's not the reason why they are classics. Ilias is a good example - compare it to the movie "Troy". What remains in the film are the gory deaths, but gone is the beauty of Homer's language, the tragedy and intrigue of the relations between gods and men.<br /><br />Plus - in a FPS game the disturbing part is (when you pause to think about) that you are not a protagonist in a story where there's a lot of killing. You actually *are* doing the killing. That's why I like FP games where you have an option not to (without failing to win the game - see Deus Ex).mikohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02798274750327471161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-86369410451579884892015-12-07T11:16:40.903+00:002015-12-07T11:16:40.903+00:00Btw I'm talking of course about when the fight...Btw I'm talking of course about when the fight is the linchpin of the plot. It would be lame if Shakespeare just made Macduff a better fighter than Macbeth. But it's okay that Leone has Blondie simply outdraw Angel Eyes, because it's what comes after the duel that matters.Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-80366105205608957382015-12-07T08:47:57.158+00:002015-12-07T08:47:57.158+00:00Ille, oculis postquam saevi monimenta doloris ...Ille, oculis postquam saevi monimenta doloris <br />exuviasque hausit, furiis accensus et ira<br />terribilis: 'tune hinc spoliis indute meorum<br />eripiare mihi? Pallas te hoc vulnere, Pallas<br />immolat et poenam scelerato ex sanguine sumit.'<br />hoc dicens ferrum adverso sub pectore condit <br />fervidus; ast illi solvuntur frigore membra<br />vitaque cum gemitu fugit indignata sub umbras.<br /><br />Vae victis.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-71256172067180069892015-12-07T08:09:14.539+00:002015-12-07T08:09:14.539+00:00Even I have been known to enjoy a Jason Statham mo...Even I have been known to enjoy a Jason Statham movie in my time. It's a similar pleasure to watching a graceful dance or a great boxing match. Usually in a story (even a martial arts movie) when everything hinges on a fight, there'll be some stratagem involved. When Conan faces the best swordsman in Aquilonia, he douses the only light, that kind of thing - assuming the writer is willing to do the work.Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-91373149252453447572015-12-06T23:51:21.966+00:002015-12-06T23:51:21.966+00:00But Achilles beats Hector by chasing him down and ...But Achilles beats Hector by chasing him down and spearing him through the throat. Aeneas beats Turnus through brute force. No deceptions there. Homer never described the ruse of the Trojan Horse directly, though he did mention it (briefly) in the Odyssey.<br /><br />Fights can be depicted in hackneyed, boring ways. But so can pretty much any human interaction. Saying that depicting conflict or plot resolution through a straight-up fight is "too easy" or not "grown up" is far too simplistic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-18592026887803839002015-12-06T23:26:55.063+00:002015-12-06T23:26:55.063+00:00It's Breaking Bad - TV drama, not a movie. Tod...It's Breaking Bad - TV drama, not a movie. Today's shared mythology, or so I thought :-)<br /><br />Now, since we're talking about the Trojan Wars, here's a good example of what I'm talking about. Suppose that instead of being finally resolved by trickery, Homer had it all come down to a pitched battle that the Greeks just won. Not so satisfying, right? That's because a writer can always say, well, this guy wins because he's a better fighter than the other guy. But as readers (or listeners, or viewers) we need to be convinced. When we're presented with a ploy like a big wooden horse or electrocuting a chap through the razor-sharp steel rim of his bowler, we have to allow that if we didn't see it coming, it counts as a legitimate victory. That's why writers prefer the clever hero to the one who's all brawn.Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-78035510116085297572015-12-06T19:58:25.218+00:002015-12-06T19:58:25.218+00:00I haven't seen the movie (I assume it's a ...I haven't seen the movie (I assume it's a movie) that you're describing. Perhaps I would find it interesting...but I also find fights to be interesting, and there are a fair number of authors I could point to that seem to agree. I went ahead and looked up the number of violent deaths in the Illiad - 252. Some of my favorites:<br /><br />4. Antiphus (Trojan) kills Leucus (Greek) (speared in the groin) (4.569)<br />12. Meriones (Greek) kills Phereclus (Trojan) (spear in the buttock) (5.66)<br />23. Diomedes (Greek) kills Pandarus (Trojan) (spear in the nose) (5.346)<br />29. Antilochus (Greek) kills Mydon (Trojan), sword in the head, stomped by his horses (5.680)<br />88. Agamemnon (Greek) kills Hippolochus (Trojan), sword cuts off his head (11.165)<br />121. Polypoetes (Greek) kills Damasus (Trojan), spear through the cheek (12.190);<br />148. Meriones (Greek) kills Harpalion (Trojan), arrow in the buttock (13.776)<br />209. Meriones (Greek) kills Laogonus (Trojan), spear in the jaw (16.702)<br />252. Achilles (Greek) kills Hector (Trojan), spear through the throat (22.410)<br /><br />Ouch!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-13923897828286933972015-12-06T19:40:49.259+00:002015-12-06T19:40:49.259+00:00I'm not against showing extreme violence in fi...I'm not against showing extreme violence in fiction or games. My point here is that when the conflict is resolved by a fight, that's not usually very interesting. When Walt has to decide whether to kill the gangster in Jesse's basement, that's utterly gripping. If he'd sorted out in a fistfight, Captain Kirk style, not so much.Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-87523385207864876962015-12-06T18:28:48.653+00:002015-12-06T18:28:48.653+00:00How few? Really? Just off the top of my head - Zeu...How few? Really? Just off the top of my head - Zeus and family vs. the Titans, Zeus and family vs. the Giants, Achilles vs. Hector (and Hector vs. Patroclus), Odysseus vs. Polyphemus, Odysseus vs. the suitors, Hercules vs. pretty much every one he comes across, Aeneas vs. Turnus, David vs. Goliath, Beowulf vs. Grendel (and family), Everyone vs. everyone in the Nibelunglied, Brutus v. Caesar, everyone vs. everyone in horrific ways in Titus Andronicus... I could go on and on and on.<br /><br />And yes, I know about Aristotle’s prohibition of showing violence in drama. Three observations: 1) the prohibition only applies to drama (not, obviously, to epic), 2) though violence wasn’t directly shown, it was very strongly implied/described (e.g., Clytemnestra and Agamemnon or Medea and her children), 3) this was out the window by modern times (cf., much of Jacobean drama).<br /><br />The presence of violence and life and death struggles is not a sign that a work is immature and not "grown up." I would argue that no author today is the equal of Virgil...yet what is the last book of the Aeneid? One extended action sequence, ending with the villain being killed by the hero. The difference between this and some Hollywood schlock is that Virgil expresses himself in expertly crafted dactylic hexameter, while the B-movie has the hero saying something like "Sayonara" followed by an explosion.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-54516707053690247992015-12-06T18:14:40.351+00:002015-12-06T18:14:40.351+00:00I should probably do a post about it at some stage...I should probably do a post about it at some stage. In brief: the characters are all in their early 20s and are mostly members of the minor gentry (sons of barons, that sort of thing). The nominal "plot" thrust is investigative - so far we've thwarted an attempt on Henry Morton Stanley's life and looked into a series of murders in London - but much of the game is social. You can get a little of the flavour from an earlier post:<br /><br />http://fabledlands.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/ties-that-bind.htmlDave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-41228845231090736922015-12-06T16:46:12.049+00:002015-12-06T16:46:12.049+00:00So Hobsbawm not Hobbiton ? Could you give us a sho...So Hobsbawm not Hobbiton ? Could you give us a short summary of the scenario/ set up because it does sound interesting John Haganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16249152658906641154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-1855074924484819572015-12-06T15:19:18.267+00:002015-12-06T15:19:18.267+00:00The movie that springs most obviously to mind is T...The movie that springs most obviously to mind is The Public Eye, in which Joe Pesci plays a fictionalized version of Weegee. There is love, betrayal, danger and death - but no fisticuffs, and I don't think Joe even pulls a gun, much less shoot anybody's toe off, which must make it unique in his filmography.Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-11602464385389245112015-12-06T13:42:59.869+00:002015-12-06T13:42:59.869+00:00Your idea for a Weegee game makes me think of clas...Your idea for a Weegee game makes me think of classic films like Blow-Up and The Conversation. There's a definite threat of violence there (personal and political -> physical and emotional) but it would be boring if it was all resolved by a punch up. Still, although cinema and role playing allow for interesting, non-violent ways to solve problems, it's not so easy to do that in a computer game.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-2743734989644774712015-12-06T10:26:55.547+00:002015-12-06T10:26:55.547+00:00I'm just considering here how few great storie...I'm just considering here how few great stories hinge on the resolution by violence of a situation where life and death are in the balance. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but there are many other ways to compel a reader's or viewer's attention. Games can grow up too.Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-31147296239661512062015-12-06T10:22:09.189+00:002015-12-06T10:22:09.189+00:00Oh, straight 1890s. It's too interesting a per...Oh, straight 1890s. It's too interesting a period to muck up like that.Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2141372262111342844.post-29995080327161294982015-12-06T07:32:18.336+00:002015-12-06T07:32:18.336+00:00Meh. I'm not bothered at all by the amount of...Meh. I'm not bothered at all by the amount of violence in games, video or otherwise. In fact, I'd say that it is, to a great extent, the raison d'etre of the vast majority of them. Ancient games like chess or checkers (i.e., petteia) are nothing but abstracted combat, and other games (e.g., card games) are often abstracted combats with cards. The reason why is simple: combat is a time-honored and exciting way of resolving human disputes. In a modern setting, video games slake an instinctual urge for combat and bloodlust. Few things stimulate the interest of people like a good fight; little wonder that it should be the case in games, especially video games.<br />That violence doesn’t solve things in an interesting way is up to the game designer. “Fast talk,” solving puzzles, and stealth can also be fatuous in their own way. But if the game designer is making a product of public consumption – as nearly all are – he is bound to use the method that captures the attention of the greatest market share. And that will be via combat. Sure, some games have jejune and repetitive combat. But that’s what makes a bad game, not the combat itself.<br />Your example of a paparazzi FPS shows just why combat is so much more effective. If a paparazzo doesn’t take a picture to the celebrity, what’s the result? That he doesn’t earn a publisher’s pay for a measly picture? And if he doesn’t get the picture, doesn’t he live many other days to take pictures of many other celebrities? How boring. It would be much more exciting to be locked in life and death struggles with dangerous foes, with the fate of the protagonist or even the world hanging in the balance. The latter strikes me as inherently much more interesting than the former.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com